关于omaha的专帖

感谢好文 感谢翻译
看的我忍不住打了两天，输了不少。
这游戏太疯狂了，就看见一堆堆的筹码在桌上飞来飞去！

附件是我打o8的数据，请老大指点。

rich, thanks for the translation. I do want more people to read it facilitate our discussion. I understand there are lots of members based in china, just too lazy to type chinese.   [s:146]

I still like  to hear your opinions about which game to play, and where I can find good O8 game etc. also, I can't find any info about shorthanded LO8. what kind of adjustment do I need to make? some players like "what is 7x6" on PS is super loose and aggressive and seems to be a winner. is that a good style? thanks.

asics你好，

首先恭喜你在今年wsop的plo8上获得第12名的好成绩。你不能打中文真是一件很遗憾的事，你的帖子对o8,plo,plo8的观察很有价值，我翻译一下。这里有不少大陆的朋友，不太习惯英文，翻成中文既是对初学者有帮助，也便于其他人对你的问题进行讨论，希望你不要介意。欢迎你常来，关键的帖子我可以代你翻译。
----------------
非常高兴看到这个帖子。首先对我没有用中文写这个帖子表示歉意，我从来没打过中文，如果用中文写这个帖子可能要花上我几天的工夫。

Rich，我知道你是O8的专家，一直想问你一些问题。去年你在o8/s8final table时，我和你打过招呼，当时我和老董一起观战，今年没有遇到你，所以借这个帖子问一下。

我最初打的是limit holdem，大概一年半以后改打no limit holdem。考虑到nlh越来越难打而PLO的前景很好，从去年初开始打plo. cash game及tournament我都打过O8,PLO8及PLO8。过去一年里多数时间用在plo cash game，多数情况下是fulltilt的2/4到5/10，有时更高。也在ps打limit更高的full ring game。

大多数omaha方面的书我都读过。我同意Hwang的书对于tournament来说过紧了。我觉得这本书是为deepstack full ring cash game,尤其是赌场里这类game写的。（我和他在st.louis打过一次，那是我第一次在赌场打PLO,我用了他书中的概念，在他身上double through) 他最近出了一本书：Advanced Pot-Limit Omaha: Small Ball and Short-Handed Play by Jeff Hwang，是一本针对short-handed PLO的。我现在在读Slotboom的新书，也是关于short-handed PLO的。我给初学者的建议是读Bob Ciaffone的"omaha poker",先掌握一些基本概念，然后读 "ot-Limit Omaha Poker" by Jeff Hwang ，其中也有O8和PLO8，以及Secrets of Short-handed Pot-Limit Omaha " by Rolf Slotboom.因为大多数网上cash game是6max,甚至不少tournament也是6max，你最好读这两本新书。

我在比赛中有一些成绩，包括今年wsop plo8的第12名，以及网上，网下plo的前三名。觉得plo比nlh要容易一些，鱼更多一些。（我在网上的no limit holdem的比赛成绩不错，但网下的比赛成绩不好，不过网下总共也就打了十来次nlh比赛）

我现在需要决定把精力放在哪个game,现金还是比赛，才可能靠打牌生活。我的理解是：
1. plo8中好牌手优势很大，涨落也比plo小，game本身也很有趣。问题是网上牌局不多（网下基本没有），而且主要是小牌局。
2. o8的涨落最小，胜率比limit holdem还高，也相对容易学好。问题是中等牌局在网上不多，而且通常是短手，一些牌手打得也很凶，而赌场除了Bellagio就没有20/40以上的牌局。
3. PLO在美国越来越流行，各级别的牌局到处都是，有的高达200/400，很多action和gamblers,但当钱放进去的时候优势比较小，因而涨落比较大。我有一次在fulltilt，一星期内从1千美元打到3万美元，两天的时间又都输出去了，打得有点超出本钱应该打得级别。我觉得大牌局（25/50以上）的牌手并不比小牌局（2/4-10/20）的牌手水平高，只是钱更多，打得更凶。plo的现金牌局要很大的本钱。

我上面谈的有可能完全是错的，希望听到Rich,David及其它有经验的牌手的意见/建议，先谢谢了。

glad to get you interested, but a word of caution for anyone who are thinking about trying PLO. PLO is fun, but kind of addictive (some players refer themself as "omahaolic"). after playing it for a while, I can't seem to play holdem anymore, especially the live cash game. can't stay patient like before. online tourney is still ok, since I usually play 3 or 4 at the same time to keep me busy. I know you are doing pretty well in Holdem MTT. maybe I will meet you at final table on PS someday.

这个贴子很精彩啊，看得我都想好好学一下omaha了。

以前就听darkillermax讲过omaha很好玩，而且如果打得好的话，赢钱比hold'em快得多。不过一直只懂些皮毛，没仔细研究过。

David:

thanks. I have wanted to meet you personally for a while, since seeing you on tv winning the WPT championship, and  especially after reading lao cha's series about you. I did saw you walk by  at Amazon room this year while I was playing 25/50 PLO. I was involved in a big pot at that time so missed the chance to greet you. maybe next year.

I admire your discipline and patience. I think that is what I am lacking sometime, and disregard for bankroll management. on monday, I saw a full table of 200/400 plo with gus hansen, durrrr etc and decided to take a shot, putting my whole bankroll on fulltilt on the table. I know it is very questionable even for ametuer like me, would be disastrous if I want to be a pro. I have played with you at 2/4 or 5/10 plo a few times. an established pro like you still playing way under your bankroll, that is what I need to learn.

I was following you in the $50000 HORSE, railing when it was down to 2 tables. congrats on the 2nd in the mixed games. it is a great achievement, showing you are one of the most well rounded pro, good in all the games.

keep up the good work with the site. there are so many russians on the poker scene now. there is no reason why chinese can't be more prominent in the poker world.

asics, First of, Welcome to Zhiyoucheng and thank you for posted such a valueable article for our members. As far as having a hard time typing in chinese, I understand PERFECTLY,my chinese is a mess as well.There's no need to appologize, simply because our members are extremely kind and generous.

Last week,had a breif conversation with Jack McClelland(Bellagio's Poker Tournament  Director) about PLO become a widely known game. He's considerring add a big buy-in PLO event in his next tournaments.

I used to hate PLO,this is apparently my worst game, swings were too big for a freshman pro like me at the mid 90's. I love it now!( maybe I am sicker than I think I am?) In facts, I've been working on to improve this game,been playing PLO on FTP for the last two years, still pretty weak but got much better now.

Anyway, Welcome!

附件是我打o8的数据，请老大指点。

从盲注的数据看应该是loose/passive的牌局，从非盲注的数据看应该是以9人桌为主，其他的真看不出什么来，不好评价。
不过，这么多手牌以后能赢钱应该肯定你在这个牌局中是赢家。 [s:146]

比赛打了一个多小时，出现了这一手牌：我在river bet out， 对方called。 我把牌摊开说了一句：nut low.全桌笑了，dealer也善意地笑了一下，把pot推给对方。我说：wait, I got low.全桌又笑了。因为我当时的形象就是有点活宝，他们以为我接着打诨。这时我才意识到something wrong，当时Miami John Cernuto正好在旁边的桌子，和我背靠背。我们天天在一起打牌，他是对我最友好的，我们在这一个多小时的时间里一直聊天。我问：John, is this straight high? John回答：what do you think it is?

原来8 omaha 里的8指的是第八个event! 如果我当时没把它误以为 eitht or better，我根本就不会报名

哈哈打比赛打了超过一个小时，才发现报错比赛  [s:167]  [s:167]  [s:167]

7 cards stud 是sklansky和Malmuth的， omaha 8/stud 8是Ray Zee的。两本书都不错，尽管两本书都比较老。
Jeff Hwang的PLO概念阐述的很好，但有点偏紧了。尤其是Tournament多数时刻的Stack都没有那么deep.和super systems 2合起来看可能更好一些。
确实PLO鱼更多，赢钱更快。

这本7 cards stud好象是三个人写的，Ray Zee的名字也包括在作者之一

"Secrets of Short-handed Pot-Limit Omaha " by Rolf Slotboom.

This is the one he co-write with Rob Hollink?
What do you think of this book?
Do you mind writing some brief review here on this book?

Thanks

rich, thanks for the translation. I do want more people to read it facilitate our discussion. I understand there are lots of members based in china, just too lazy to type chinese.   [s:146]

I still like  to hear your opinions about which game to play, and where I can find good O8 game etc. also, I can't find any info about shorthanded LO8. what kind of adjustment do I need to make? some players like "what is 7x6" on PS is super loose and aggressive and seems to be a winner. is that a good style? thanks.

以我读你贴子的感觉，你的plo比o8挣钱要快，但你不喜欢plo的swing。如果我是你，可能会取决于当时自己的情况，如果觉得自己状况好，时间较多就打plo,反之o8。当然牌局的情况也要考虑，但对你的情况好像是次要因素。

短手的o8几乎是完全不同的game，9人桌和5人桌的调整要比holdem/plo/plo8的调整都大，至少这是我的看法。7人桌以上的o8基本上是关于making nut on one side and free rollling on the other side，而5人桌以下则主要是stealing/defending blinds and value betting marginal hands. 后者跟holdem及其他所几乎所有"button"牌局类似，但因为o8在短手起手牌差距缩小的更快，flop后的差距通常也不大，常常是落后一方有足够的odds去call，这样这个game就变成如何在领先但优势不大的时候获取很小但经常出现利益。当然网上很多短手o8的选手明白这一点而过于aggressive，这时我常常喜欢induce bluff，效果更好，风险更小。

至于你问的特定牌局及特定选手，我也常打，但不方便在这里谈，有机会见面交流吧。