请教ED的一篇文章What To Do When They Won’t Fold

刚看了ED的BLOG，有一篇What To Do When They Won’t Fold，他的观点是，如果你在桌上遇到这样的人，你不应该TIGHT UP，而是应该更多的参与。他举了两个例子。我看了一下，觉得他的论点是对的，但论据却很牵强，想请同学们一起讨论一下。文章连接：http://www.cardplayer.com/cardpl ... when-they-wont-fold

虽然我的英语还凑合，这篇文章大致可以看懂。不过如果lZ有空的话，最好可以翻译一下。麻烦了。

回复 2# 德州新人


    看一半
觉得思路很象我们用q9打单牛
这也开始引领你向松凶买进
这时可以松凶的第一种环境

也间接回答了紧凶在这样的环境下效率低问题

First, here’s a general tip: Be willing to gamble a little. Waiting for a sure thing is not the best plan. The guy who won’t fold is usually the most profitable opponent at the table for you. You’re going to miss out on the party if you tighten up too much and wait to catch a big pair or flop a set. I mention this first because it’s my experience that tightening up is exactly how most players react to a non-folder. It’s ridiculous when the loosest guy at the table has trouble getting action, but I’ve seen it many times. You’re going to get the guy’s money by playing with him, not by waiting and waiting.
“首先，一个基本的建议：要多赌一些。等待好牌并不是最好的方式。这种不肯扔牌的对手是你在牌桌上最容易赚到钱的对手。如果你打紧，等大对或翻牌出暗三，你就错过太多的机会。我之所以先提到这一点，是因为从我所见，大多数牌手面对不肯扔牌的对手确实变得更紧。桌上最松的玩家却很难得到回应这本身就是荒唐的，但我确实看到太多这样的情形。你只有跟他玩才能赢到他的钱，而不是一等再等。”

参与前些天Q9讨论的朋友对这些话应该不陌生吧？

我们是读的同一篇文章吗？ 为啥咱读出的精华和别人不一样呐?
"For example, let’s say Mr. Nofold limps in. Everyone folds to you on the button, and you have A-J offsuit. Make a huge raise. I usually start at around 10 times the big blind ($50 in a $2-$5 game) and increase my raise sizes over time to see how my target reacts. Occasionally, the blinds will have a montser hand and will make you pay, but most of the time you’ll be playing a big pot with a big advantage."
“Two factors make this big raise extremely profitable. First, if you stick to hands like A-J and 8-8 or better, you will easily win more than half the time just by the relative strength of your hand over his. His 8-4 suited will draw out on your A-Q sometimes, and it might hurt because the pot is so large, but you’ll be winning far more than your share of these confrontations. Second, you usually have a big advantage when you get the rest of the money in. By putting $100 into the pot preflop, it’s not difficult to get your remaining $400 in with 10-10 against 8-4 on an 8-7-2 flop. So, you not only are getting the best of it preflop, but also have the post-flop edge for even bigger money. It all adds up to a huge advantage for you."

Loosening up the range vs this type of play is no argument. But the highlighted is the key of the discussion.  1)  you be the aggressor to raise when they limp instead of limp call 30$ .  2)  Even if you loosen up your range, you can easily find a much better hand  than Q9s which crush their range..  He did mention how to milk profit out of people playing Q9s in the article.  不要为了捕鱼，自己当鱼被人抓了。。。
个人觉得, limp call big raise Q9s 的人就是ed miller article 里要抓的鱼...limp call 30$ with Q9s is not "Loose and Aggressive", it is "Loose and passive".  Raise AJ o 30$ vs limper is Loose and Aggressive.

乍一看标题，吓我一跳，以为智游城新开了一个版块。

我的疑问是,他举的例子，一个是A10，一个是QQ,QQ就不说了，A10这手牌即使是紧的人，在有位置的时候也要玩，这和LOOSE UP好象没有联系。如果他在例子里有讨论关于如何玩Q9 AGANST NO FOLDER，我到觉得和标题相符。的确，墙兄的关于Q9的讨论好象与这个标题更相符。

米勒在这个文章里所说的紧，是指起手牌必大对子，翻牌后必set的人。我个人认为是指岩石玩家。一般的紧的玩家，应该不在这个范围内。
"You’re going to miss out on the party if you tighten up too much and wait to catch a big pair or flop a set."
米勒是个聪明人，他是不会犯这种一般性错误的。

Ed miller 写的东西非常好， 非常实用， 写得也非常清楚， 我很欣赏， 和我对limp call Q9s打法的看法没有任何矛盾， 反而印证了一点我的看法。。 至于每个人对这篇文章如何理解和应用，就仁者见仁，智者见智了。

老师领进门，修行靠自己。  

Just try not to become loose passive when you try to be loose aggressive... Loose passive is the worst kind of fish. Much worse than weak tight.

回复 5# windstormm

我觉得这篇文章的精华是这句话： Be willing to gamble a little. Waiting for a sure thing is not the best plan.

milk draws on the turn 思路很清晰，让追你的人在turn遭受灭顶之灾，没错。

下面这段；
Get Money in Preflop
Some people simply won’t fold preflop. They’ll limp in for $5 in a $2-$5 game, and then, without much thought, call $100 more after a raise and reraise. They’ll do it with J-7 suited or 9-8 offsuit just as much as they’ll do it with something better. How do you handle someone like that?

The answer is simple. With all of your big aces and medium to big pocket pairs, you make an enormous raise after he’s limped in. The more confident you are that you won’t run into aces or kings from someone else at the table, the bigger your raise can be.

For example, let’s say Mr. Nofold limps in. Everyone folds to you on the button, and you have A-J offsuit. Make a huge raise. I usually start at around 10 times the big blind ($50 in a $2-$5 game) and increase my raise sizes over time to see how my target reacts. Occasionally, the blinds will have a montser hand and will make you pay, but most of the time you’ll be playing a big pot with a big advantage.

Two factors make this big raise extremely profitable. First, if you stick to hands like A-J and 8-8 or better, you will easily win more than half the time just by the relative strength of your hand over his. His 8-4 suited will draw out on your A-Q sometimes, and it might hurt because the pot is so large, but you’ll be winning far more than your share of these confrontations. Second, you usually have a big advantage when you get the rest of the money in. By putting $100 into the pot preflop, it’s not difficult to get your remaining $400 in with 10-10 against 8-4 on an 8-7-2 flop. So, you not only are getting the best of it preflop, but also have the post-flop edge for even bigger money. It all adds up to a huge advantage for you.


我真的没太绕清作者想干什么
他先说，增加preflop的 raise，拿AJ还是88啊。然后说自己跑步了，跑步了应该就是无条件在flop或者turn无条件推了。

他这文章说的太简略。他没有区分，喜欢靠的人，至少有两种。
1，翻牌前喜欢靠，翻牌一出来能被打走。不走的话就是有顶对子了，如果是这样的人，你拼命就是不对的。锅里200，你余下300，只有6个活路，拼命显然不对。
2，翻牌前喜欢靠，翻牌后打死不走的，如丹牛。
这两种人的对付办法相当不一样。

你要根据，至少，这两种人做出不同的调整。
当然，不扔牌的人，还可以区分出比这两种更细的。
3，有的人，100% c bet的，turn示弱，你应该有别的应对措施。

还有，一下子想不了那么多。