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楼主: hahuhu
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强烈建议扑克研究“去数学化”

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11#
 楼主| hahuhu 发表于 2013-10-2 13:09:14 | 只看该作者
maomaobiao 发表于 2013-10-2 07:06
All models are wrong, but some are useful.

For example,

也许sex才是study的动力。许多人忘记了自己真正的目标。正如学习语言是为了交流而不是显摆。
12#
 楼主| hahuhu 发表于 2013-10-2 13:19:13 | 只看该作者
oasisbj 发表于 2013-10-2 11:55
估计你这篇贴是要找骂了。

我讨厌天天只会玩线上的拿着一堆软件躲在后面算计的玩家,因为我不玩线上。扑克 ...

去数学化的意思就是不要整天扛着数学的概念去分析扑克的全部因素。真正在战场上,捕捉战机的机敏,破釜沉舟的勇气,审时度势的气度,也许比那个可怜的EV要有用的多。
千万不要把简单的EV无限扩大,把各种风险因素都算作EV的因子,这样的EV是挂数学头,卖迷幻药。


13#
到智游城学习 发表于 2013-10-2 13:30:09 | 只看该作者
我不确定你是否充分理解我的意思,表达不是我强项。摘抄husng上关于如何认识ev一段话:
How to Think About Expectation in Poker


In HUSNGs and all forms of poker, maximizing your results making your decisions based on what will produce the best outcomes over time. Maintaining a consistent focus on expected value goes a long way in helping you be as successful as you can be in the game (and in life, although that’s a subject for another day). However, I don't necessarily mean this in the way a lot of people do. Expectation calculations are often seen as a nerd’s domain, which sets up a false dichotomy between the math player, who seeks edge by pouring over frequencies and obsessing over calculations, and the feel player, who seeks edge through intuitive understandings of the flow of the game and his or her own natural expertise. While those types of people certainly exist, there are plenty of “math players” who are spectacularly bad at calculating expectation, and plenty of “feel players” who do it exceptionally well. Poker comes down to how well you interact with the math of the game, no matter what kind of player you see yourself as. The decisions you make have an expected value, and you always want to make the ones that will work out best over time.

Given that framework for looking at calculation, it is clear the nerds of the poker world do not have a monopoly on good analysis of expectation. Whatever your skillset, you benefit from thinking about your EV. This ebook aims to give you a framework to do that more effectively.

Let's start by talking about what good poker thinking means. Good poker thinking defines “+EV” as the best possible option, not just better than folding or better than not playing the game at all. It means not just being satisfied with having an edge, but seeking the largest edge possible. It does not want to stick to all of the strategies that have have combined to create a positive winrate in the past – it is always evolving, always questioning, always getting better. It is not afraid of being wrong, but rather staying wrong.

The most effective poker minds get rid of notions like “this is just my strategy” and “I’ve done this for a while and I’m a winning player, so I’m going to keep doing it”. They realize that playing different opponents calls for dramatically different approaches, and that it’s OK to play against a random opponent named “DogLoverAA” with a style that Phil Ivey would obliterate, as long as it makes the most money in that game
送给你,俺也在学习。
14#
到智游城学习 发表于 2013-10-2 13:38:19 | 只看该作者
如果让我来说,扑克的最本质语言就是数学,数学是捏合扑克各种因子的纽带。
15#
dengxianqi 发表于 2013-10-2 13:44:15 来自手机 | 只看该作者
到智游城学习 发表于 2013-10-2 13:38
如果让我来说,扑克的最本质语言就是数学,数学是捏合扑克各种因子的纽带。 ...

Can not agree with you more!
16#
到智游城学习 发表于 2013-10-2 13:48:28 | 只看该作者
{:soso_e181:}
17#
 楼主| hahuhu 发表于 2013-10-2 14:00:31 | 只看该作者
到智游城学习 发表于 2013-10-2 13:30
我不确定你是否充分理解我的意思,表达不是我强项。摘抄husng上关于如何认识ev一段话:
How to Think About ...

每天都在学新概念英语,但现在还看不全懂。多谢美意。我以后的考试也要用英语答题,所以在补课中,日后一定用英语与你探讨。但无论文中的意思如何,我都确信自己明白EV的概念。除非是个人对这个概念有了新的应用。
其实,你的意思大意是说,用数学分析的方法来帮助我们提高对扑克的理解和运用。而我的意思是说,数学是重要的但不是价值本身。比如,我们可以分析股票数据,但过去的数据是不能决定未来的,说到底,对环境的判断,对对手行为的分析,一点创意的行动和人的感觉,才是根本。就好像我们用会计来计量企业价值,但是会计并不会直接创造价值,创造价值的是产品和服务。
意犹未尽,就此打住。
18#
 楼主| hahuhu 发表于 2013-10-2 14:15:36 | 只看该作者
到智游城学习 发表于 2013-10-2 13:38
如果让我来说,扑克的最本质语言就是数学,数学是捏合扑克各种因子的纽带。 ...

数学是个好东西,但也有数学做不到的东西。正如Allenwang在他的《凤凰杯夺冠之路》里面开篇引用的罗曼罗兰的语句——最可怕的敌人就是没有坚强的信念。信念这种东西,我们如何计算EV呢?
在美国,很多人都相信上帝,在遇到一些比较复杂的抉择的时候,人们往往说一句:跟随上帝的指引;或者跟随心的方向。这种相信感觉的天赋,如何用数学衡量呢?
以为用数学指引自己研究扑克就能出人头地,我认为是低估扑克本身,也低估这个世界了。
19#
oasisbj 发表于 2013-10-2 14:25:29 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 oasisbj 于 2013-10-2 14:29 编辑
到智游城学习 发表于 2013-10-2 13:38
如果让我来说,扑克的最本质语言就是数学,数学是捏合扑克各种因子的纽带。 ...

同意,数学,尤其是概率吧,是德州的基础——这是我说服自己打德州是在 play a game 而不是 gamble。

关于楼主在18#楼说的观点,我认为数学和概率是基础,但是肯定不是全部。换句话说,如果是全部,那么编个软件只玩线上,甚至不用人坐在电脑前面操作鼠标,完全用程序去完成就可以赚钱了。

确实除了数学还有很多别的东西,比如读人、读牌,但是我也不认为那些别的东西是跟着感觉或者上帝走(没有不敬的意思)。但无论怎么说,是离不开数学和概率作为基础的。不然,就仅仅剩下赌博了。
20#
到智游城学习 发表于 2013-10-2 14:29:28 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 到智游城学习 于 2013-10-2 14:30 编辑

OK。在扑克中,疯子的信念最强吧,那么对付疯子数学上就没办法了吗?我只要range比你窄一点,我就是+ev,所以我总是拿到底对的时候,疯子只要敢下注,我就敢打到allin,时间越长,疯子总会输给我。为什么我有着信心,因为有着平均期望值。这算不算数学呢?当然某几盘,我也会输给疯子。
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