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楼主: David Chiu
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假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

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31#
goldkey 发表于 2009-12-4 18:18:01 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

deep stack
David:小盲 K10o

Phil:大盲 QJo

sb bet 3bb  BB call 3bb

Flop:KQJ无花
sb  bet 6bb
bb re to 18bb
sb re to 36bb   bb call
pot 78bb

Turn:10
sb check  bb check
River:3
sb bet 60bb   bb call
32#
CNYgogogo 发表于 2009-12-5 01:03:05 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

还没公布答案?
33#
SUIM 发表于 2009-12-5 04:37:42 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

If I had this hand, I'd do something like:

pre flop: SB call
Ivey might call or raise. if raise, call

post flop: 2/3 or half of pot
turn: 2/3 of pot or full pot.

river: bet half of pot and ready to fold if gets re-raised

how did u play?
34#
 楼主| David Chiu 发表于 2009-12-5 08:23:02 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

An important concept to understand is that hand values change dramatically when the pot becomes heads up.
Any two big cards become raising material and a player of Phil Ivey's calibre is well aware of this. Thus when I raise from the SB
I can expect Phil to re-raise with any big pair or strong Ace. When Phil just calls my raise, I can be reasonably sure that KT is the best hand. The flop is a good one for me so I bet out not expecting to get called. When I do get called I have to make a quick decision as to what Phil is holding. He will not have KK QQ JJ or AK AQ AJ so what is his most likely holding. Phil has to have a hand because I have represented a strong hand and the board is all high cards that are likely to have helped me. So I decide Phil's hand is likely to be T8 suited or possibly J8 suited, Q9 or QT. TT or are possible but unlikely because Phil would probably have reraised with a fairly big pair. T9 is possible but there is a strong chance that Phil would raise on the flop. He knows I may have flopped two pairs or a set and may not get away from AK. If the board pairs and I have AK it will be hard for Phil to get paid off after a call on the flop so Phil would probably play T9 aggressively. So I was  confident that I had best hand on flop.
When the T comes on the turn I bet out again to represent the Ace and is surprised to get called. However I don't believe Phil has an Ace because what would his kicker be? It cannot be a high kicker because there was no pr-flop re-raise. It cannot be a low kicker because Phil would not call the flop. Therefore Phil does not have an Ace. But what does he have? Well a 9 is a very definite possibility but if Phil has a 9 he has to be afraid of an Ace in my hand. The river card cannot have helped either player so I check.
This has the advantage of possibly enticing a bluff from Phil. A bet would only get called by a hand that could beat KT so there is no gain in betting. However Phil may try and get me off my hand if I give him the opportunity to bluff at the pot.

Here's how I played this hand:

I raised to 5,300 pre-flop  he called
Bet 9,800 on the flop
Bet 21,000 on the turn
Check and called for 33,000 on the river

By the way, Phil was last longer than I in the tourney. LOL...That's POKER!!!

非常感谢各位同学的参与。特别要致谢小顺子的翻译。看不太懂的同学找小顺子算帐去,不关我事。呵呵  [s:167]  [s:167]  [s:167]

一个重要的概念要理解的是牌的价值改变很多当两人对决的时候
任何两张大牌变成了可以加注的牌,以Phil Ivey这种牌手的能力,肯定知道这个的道理。所以当我从小盲注加注的时候,我可以知道Phil Ivey会再加注任何强A或大对。当Phil Ivey只是跟我的加注,我很有理由相信我拥有的KT是比较好的牌。
Flop是一个好的board,所以我继续下注没有Phil Ivey会跟。 当Phil Ivey跟牌的时候,我需要尽快做出判定Ivey手上有可能的牌。他不会有KK, QQ, JJ 或 AK, AQ, AJ, 所以什么会是他最有可能的牌。

Phil Ivey肯定有一定的牌力,因为我的行动已经代表我有强的牌,扶老婆的牌都是大牌,都是很可能帮助到我的牌。所以我判定Phil Ivey手上的牌应该是T8同花,或 J8同花, Q9 或 QQ。TT有点可能性但是如果Phil Ivey有TT,很大可能他在preflop就会再加注了。T9有可能但是Phil Ivey很大可能会在这个flop加注而不是跟注。他知道我可能flop到两对,或set 或 有AK而不能放掉。如果接下来的board 对上了,我有AK, 那么P.Ivey就很难能得到价值了如果他只是在flop跟牌,因为我会弃掉我的AK。所以我相信Phil 会在flop把他的T9玩得很激进。所以我有信心我拥有最好的手在flop。

当转机牌来了个T,我继续下注代表A, 很惊奇的P.Ivey继续跟牌。但是我不相信P.Ivey有一个A,因为如果是他的kicker会是什么呢? 不会是高牌,因为翻牌前没有再加注。还有他不会有A低kicker因为他不会在flop跟牌。所以P.Ivey没有A。但是他会有什么?well, 9是很有可能,但是如果P.Ivey有9,他必须害怕我有A。河牌没有帮助任何人,所以我观望。
我的观望可以引来P.Ivey的诈唬,我的下注只能被比KT更强的牌跟,所以我的下注是没有价值的。但是P.Ivey可能会试想把我吓跑,如果我给他这个机会。

以下是我怎么玩这手牌

翻牌前, 我加注至5,300 P.Ivey 跟注
翻牌圈, 我下注 9,800 P.Ivey 跟注
转牌圈, 我下注 21,000 P.Ivey 跟注
河牌圈, 我观望 P.Ivey下注 33,000 我跟注

这个比赛最后是Phil Ivey比我还迟出局 LOL 这就是扑克!
35#
tender 发表于 2009-12-5 09:59:25 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

这就是高手的打法

David这手牌打的如此精彩!
36#
yacaimei 发表于 2009-12-5 10:42:14 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

看了分析越来越糊涂了。

先说David bet turn。是不是属于bluff?有A的(AJ,AQ,AT,A9)肯定不会扔,有9的也应该会call一下因为有position(A9,K9,Q9,J9...),就是说better hand won't fold,就算是KJ,KQ,但估计也不是100%会扔,所以我觉得bluff的意义似乎不是很大。再看value/protect hand方面,Kx估计call的可能不大,QJ,QT,TJ有可能call,但是对于这些牌,我们way ahead,给张free card不危险,可以等到river再value bet,这时这些牌call的可能性会增加。所以value bet意义似乎也不是很大。

还有phil ivey的river bet。我觉得这里主要是作为Bluff,因为QJ这里没啥value了,如果真是value,那也太thin了。。。。A肯定会call,有9的话可能会扔,但是bet size是33,000 into 70,000+,估计不少9也有call的可能。bluff还有一个目标就是better two pair了,KQ,KJ,KT,这类牌fold是有可能的。(当然这里没成功,被david call了)

还有在flop上phil的two pair likely ahead,但是board又很危险,觉得是不是稍微raise一下比较好。

反正这手牌我是一点也看不懂,一位顶级高手可能在某个action上make mistake,但是两位高手是不可能在多次action上make mistake,看来是我自己的问题了。
37#
 楼主| David Chiu 发表于 2009-12-5 11:03:30 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

其实,我之所以post这个贴,就因为意识到在某地方出错了,请大家给予指正.同时也希望大家不要犯同样的错误。I don't care whoever you are,how good of a player, you are going to make mistakes.Include me and Phil.
38#
wangxiaoqing 发表于 2009-12-5 11:06:08 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

david raise 到6000,phil call
flop:david bet 8000.phil rasie 到12000,david call
turn:david bet 12000,phil call
river:david check,phil bet 12000,david call



翻牌前, 我加注至5,300 P.Ivey 跟注
翻牌圈, 我下注 9,800 P.Ivey 跟注
转牌圈, 我下注 21,000 P.Ivey 跟注
河牌圈, 我观望 P.Ivey下注 33,000 我跟注



呵呵,我的下注少了写,flop错了
39#
skizzik 发表于 2009-12-5 12:53:06 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

难得一见老邱发主题

我估计其他人要是都fold了,你在小盲这牌必然要ST的,3BB左右

他有可能3bet也有可能call IP,这个就没定论了。我估计call要多一点,保持较高的SPR,跟你打post flop

然后估计你肯定C-bet这个flop,他的决策我想更多可能是call,争取show down。也从你的TCB里赚点value

turn会把两个人都吓到,check/check

river估计你会block bet一个1/4 pot左右,他会call down

我的假设是这样
40#
skizzik 发表于 2009-12-5 13:08:54 | 只看该作者

假如是您,怎样处理这手牌?

哇 看完了实际的过程,没有想到高手间的较量层次比我所能想象的还要高得多

turn的c-bet和river的check/call至少在我这一层都不是一个太好的line

check turn以后bet river不知道会不会好些,但是block bet也许会遭来ivey的bluff。

这里ivey不愿意摊牌估计还是想诈跑比他大的2pair。他想的应该是你的A还会bet river的,你过牌应该没有A,并且你希望摊牌获胜。而如果你希望摊牌获胜,那他的底牌很有可能已经不是最好了。

ivey也许在想,Qiu会认为如果ivey是小一点的2pair应该会摊牌。而call turn之后,river还不肯摊牌还要打value的牌,top2一般也只能赢空气了。但是ivey估计不会用空气来call turn,所以还能打value bet的牌应该比2pair大。

我觉得ivey的thinking level在这里还算蛮合适的,不过不清楚老邱当时想到了什么call上的。仅仅是因为check river会introduce bluff么?好像不足够啊
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