4bet all in,你会CALL吗

很久没去DU场了,昨天和几个牌友一起去了RAMA,1/2 GAME,前半场很顺利,基本把全桌的钱都收了.走了几个人之后,来了几个新人,一个人坐在我右手,筹码1000多,我当时的筹码900左右,他是个白人,戴着棒球帽,表情比较酷,应该是个打鱼的,几圈之后,来了这样一手牌.
我在CUTOFF,35黑桃,LIMP,他在BTN,RAISE TO 12,前边一个人CALL,我CALL.
FLOP:678全黑桃,
我BET30,他RAISE TO 70,我略作思考,RERAISE TO 270,他立即ALL IN,我当时还剩580左右,他的筹码COVER我.
很长时间没去DU场了，当时对周围气氛的感觉还不是很适应，脑子有点乱，桌上所有的人都在看我，压力有点大，当时感觉CALL 和不CALL相当接近，我当时的思考的点主要集中在对方在如此深的筹码上4BET ALL IN，我认为我3BET几乎已经把我的牌打明了，实在是想不出除了NUT FLUSH还有什么牌能这么玩，如果是你，你会CALL还是FLOD？

其实呢，最近深筹码打多了，基本都是buy-in 400BB，随便抡几下就800BB以上，离桌基本都在1600BB上下的情况。再看这手牌，打回去到270后，easy call all-in。这至少都还有两个同花顺outs

要么就老老实实call 70，看情况call转牌河牌到底

"的确有些是出于对筹码的恐惧.."

There is one time,  i have 78s at KQ Js board, i folded to somebody's all in and he show 23s ...

After some thinking i am willing to lose made flush to higher flush at flop thereafter.

youngtercel 发表于 2011-10-26 04:26
Yeah, he likes his TOP SET.  Even you all in first , he is gotta to call.  There is NO Way he (or an ...

这里,我当时也想过,如果他拿NUT的话,可能不会选择ALL IN.但只是一个闪念,毕竟ALL IN也是MAKE SENSE的,因为如果TURN再来个黑桃,或者PAIR THE BOARD,那么他的牌都很难获得价值更多的价值.所以,如果简单地把他的牌排除NUT的话,还是有些草率,只能说NUT在他的RANG里,还应该包括NUT DRAW和TOP SET,综合这些因素,CALL应该是唯一的选项,我当时没有CALL,的确有些是出于对筹码的恐惧,我在前边说的那个场外因素就是这个,我的两个朋友当时都过来看这手牌,我想如果输了,感觉有点没面子,呵呵,爱面子有时害死人呀

深筹码试图把牌力打明，希望对手知难而退，其实是种示弱吧。对手的nut flush draw, set, better flush都可以利用这点来作文章。
在对手的阅读里，如果你这里是nut flush，在flop应该不会3bet回去。
du鬼兄提到的一点，深筹码切忌把牌力打明，霍华德在扑士杂志里的系列文章中也明确提到过。
这手牌，楼主没位置，牌力暴露，对筹码有恐惧感，很难打赢。
反过来，如果flop check call，对手会更加忌惮。一般在turn而不是flop发力，对手会更加尊重，除非相互有特殊的阅读。

I have to post this again:

[ 言归正传，我来提具体提几个Have to pay (not nuts but never fold)的情形，算作我自己的Guide line，
自然，这都不是100％绝对的，某些情况我还是会fold，比如对手亮给我看：）. 这里都是说的现金局，在Bank roll范围内玩。

1，Middle set in a dry flop.  Dole在super system 里也举一个一个类似的例子，J 4 2，被对手Raise All in，他的原话是
if i hold 44, than i have to see his JJ. if i hold 22, then depends.
2,  Top set in any flop
3,  Flopped Flush。
4，High Full house, 例如 9x at 99 44 5，or A5 at AA 9 5 7
5,  Straight on a no-flush flop.
6,  Any quads or straight flush while using my both hole cards
]

Yeah, he likes his TOP SET.  Even you all in first , he is gotta to call.  There is NO Way he (or anybody) can fold a TOP set at flop. so he is willing to risk the stake.

Now for this type of hand, we need some subtle feeling to play.  

Will you all in with nut FLUSH if you were him?
Will a normal player all in with nut FLUSH at this moment?

Instinct answer is NO! NO! NO! Because there is no reason to all in with NUT FLUSH here.

the reason:

1, if he think you are small made flush or straight, he is super ahead and safe, there is no reason to scare you away now!

2, if he think you have set, he know you are not folding so why bother to gamble now?


and most important, have ENOUGH bankroll !  

Cause sometime you HAVE TO PAY! and flush over flush on flop is just one of this
situation.

Free yourself from this type of struggling and you can play poker  better.

leisong 发表于 2011-9-15 21:51
嗯，受教了。

换个角度，你88，对方35花

对手打法相信会一样，翻牌你RAISE的话就ALL IN

论坛的精华都在这个贴里了

谁先动手谁吃亏，没位置，35花略显弱，控制一下池底，check过去，对手set必然bet，根据bet的量来衡量一下牌力。3花面，nuts花不会bet太大，set、overpair什么的会起码80%到满锅，偷得话，call到底估计pot也大不到哪去。我是新人，学习中，请大师们指教！