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DANIEL - POKER JOURNAL
The Table Talk Rule
01 Aug 2011
During this years WSOP main event the floor man was heavily enforcing a TDA rule that essentially says you are not allowed to disclose the contents of your hand. The TDA rule has been in place for 7 years, but I'd never actually seen it enforced. It is such a flawed rule that no TD would dare enforce it in any marginal situation.
The problem with this rule, is that the TDA cannot agree as a group as to what constitutes breaking this rule. There is far too much wiggle room for a floor person to rule one way or the other, which actually puts even more stress on the floor staff, and makes there job that much harder.
To prove my point, I'd be willing to wager a hefty sum of money on the following: Matt Savage can pick any 10 tournament directors in the world to do a simple quiz. I'll come up with 10 scenarios, and if all the floor staff agree on what constitutes an infraction of the rule, I lose. If the tournament directors are given the SAME information, but don't all enforce the rule the same way, then Houston... we have a problem.
I asked Linda Johnson if she wanted a piece of this bet and she smartly declined. So the problem here is this: if the TDs cannot agree on how to implement this rule, how can a player ever understand what is OK to say and what is not? They play in one tournament and Matt Savage says, "That's fine you can say that" then a week later play in David Lamb's event and he says, "That's a penalty." The goal of the TDA has been to standardize rules, but they have made a grave error with this rule because it cannot be standardized the way it's currently written, because every floor person will rule identical situations differently.
That point alone demands that the rule should be changed, but don't worry, I have plenty more. On a recent radio show Matt Savage and I discussed this rule and I quizzed him on various situations. He contradicted himself repeatedly and backtracked on original responses to situations. For example, I sent him the following question: Is it OK if I say this on the river when a player is thinking of calling, "You really thinking about calling with Ace high? Good Luck with that." Matt's answer "Penalty." He later flip flopped and said it's fine.
That same day he was asked if the following was OK: A player moves all in and a player is thinking of calling, "I'll take it here man I don't want to race." In this case he says that's fine. The problem is, if you enforce the rule the way it's written, this should NOT be OK because you've revealed information about your hand. If you had Aces, you wouldn't be racing, so now your opponent knows (if you are telling the truth) that you don't have aces.
On question after question, the answers become more and more confusing which leaves a player with only one option: Do not say ANYTHING during a hand or you could receive a penalty.
Facing a river bet you say one of the following:
"I can only beat a bluff."
"Gosh, I've had like 10 big pairs today and get screwed every time."
"I can't beat a flush but you might be betting top pair here."
"I can't beat a set, but I have a pair of deuces crushed."
"I had the best hand before the flop for sure."
"I have the same pair I started with."
In these cases, the player never reveals the exact hand that they have, but they do give information away about their range of hands. Which one of those statements warrant a penalty?
A player is thinking about calling you and you say:
"I either have a set of Kings or Queen high. It's 50/50 you should flip a coin."
"You don't seriously think I'd bet ace high in this spot do you? Ha, I know you have like deuces and are trying to be a hero. You silly boy."
"Don't be silly son, you can live to fight another day. Muck that piece of trash."
Slightly different scenario, where a player may be coaxing his opponent into either a call or a fold. Which one of these statements warrant a penalty?
This rule is supposed to protect players, but I gave Matt another scenario where I was shocked by his answer. It's so obviously unjust: 65 year old man, tournament newbie has pocket aces. River comes a flush card and his opponent goes all in. The man mumbles to himself, "Oh man every time I get these stupid aces I always lose!" Now he thinks for a bit, then makes the call. I asked Matt Savage if he would penalize this guy and Matt's response? "Absolutely, he deserves a penalty." I can't believe Matt, or anyone really feels this guy genuinely deserves a penalty. He's clearly not colluding, and his comment, out of frustration, is clearly innocent. I can't believe Matt would actually penalize this guy, but this rule would rightfully allow him to do so.
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Is revealing your range of hands considered revealing the contents of your hand? If so, is that OK? If it's OK, then how narrow can you reveal your range to be? Is it OK to say, "I can beat bottom pair but I really think you have top set." Is it OK to say "I can beat JJ but I can't beat AA." In the first case my exposed range is between bottom pair and top set. In the second example I am exposing the fact that I have QQ or KK.
Matt seems to be OK with some of this stuff, but not all. If I bet the river and say, "I either have a set of Kings or Queen high" Matt says that's a penalty, however, all I've done is revealed my RANGE of hands. Of course, I could be lying.
In not one of the example mentioned is collusion ever an issue. Over 99% of table talk is completely unrelated to collusion, which appears to be the one and only reason that the TDA added this rule. The biggest lie that's being told is that if you get rid of this rule, you make collusion legal. That is just not true. Collusion and soft play is illegal. It was before this rule was implemented, and I imagine it always will be.
If the players at the table and/or the floor staff suspect two players are colluding either with signals, verbally, or by blatantly soft playing each other, they should absolutely be penalized.
The other point they try to make is that if you allow table talk, everyone is all of a sudden going to start colluding with each other. Huh? I never colluded before this rule was implemented, and taking away this rule isn't going to make everyone feel like they have a liscense to cheat. Verbal collusion is illegal. Table talk, and revealing information about your hole cards doesn't equal collusion. In fact, verbal collusion is by far the least likely way two legitimate cheaters would ever cheat because it brings more attention to what they are doing.
The proper procedure for dealing with collusion was in place long before the existence of this rule. If two players are suspected of collusion, either the players at the table, the dealer, or the floor over seeing it, would investigate. The tournament director would take a look at both hands and either issue a warning, or if it's blatantly obvious, and a repeated offense, penalize the players involved in the collusion.
An example of blatant collusion would look something like this: Blinds 1000-2000 (300 ante) everyone folds to the small blind who has 200,000 in chips. The big blind has another 400 in chips after paying the 2000 big blind. The small blind folds! In this case, the players at the table should be VERY suspicious. The floor should be called. The floor then should take a look at the small blind's cards. It hardly matters in this case as he should put him all in even if he has 7-2 off suit. If the floor now sees a hand like A-10 he can remove any doubt whatsoever. This is pure collusion. If it's a more marginal case, the floor issues a stern warning and lets both players know that if anything like this happens again, they will be penalized. The rest of the players at the table will now have their eyes on any future suspicious behavior between these two players.
Matt also asserted that it's impossible to know the relationships between the various players in a tournament, but in fact, that is completely irrelevant. In the previous example, their relationship doesn't make a difference. They were colluding. Which brings me to my next important point: it is NOT OK for a player to collude with another by telling him he has AA, and then his opponent folds KK preflop. Fixing this awful rule would not change this fact.
If this happens, "Let it go man I have AA for real. Throw it away." Then his opponent folds, the players at the table should call the floor immediately. The floor should take a look at both hands. If it appears as those these two players may be colluding verbally, either a stern warning or a penalty should be given. Once again, these two players would be put on notice, and any future banter would be heavily scrutinized.
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