[德扑圈] Top set facing donk or 3bet?

Hand#1
HERO utg dealt AA with 130bb. limp (sb was super spewy fishy guy, love to punish the limper, been open/3bet ton of hands, excepting him to squeeze here)
rest fo the player behind limp even with that spewy sb player,
6way limping pot
FLOP Qs3dJh
HERO bet 1/2, one mp calls, HU. (MP passive fish, quite high vpip)
TURN Ad
HERO bet 1/2 again, mp player 3bets the pot, (after hero called, pot almost 50bb, hero have 110bb effective)
HERO?
Decision #1：call, check all the river let vill value himslef, since we almost never had AA here by betting 1/2 on flop and turn, vill may over value his 2par hand or set almost always, and we can avoid lost more chips in case vill had KT for nuts,
Decision #2：shoving? if, if we sure villian is capable to call anything like 2pair/set to pay our hand, ofcuz if he really do have the nuts, we just drawing for 10outs,  
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Hand#2
HERO utg+1 dealt QQ with 120bb, open 4x get call by utg limper, (limp call ton of sxxxty hands)
HU
FLOP Qs3h7c
vill donk 1/2, hero just call,
TURN Jc
vill bets 1/2 again (vill has 30bb left)
HERO?
Decision #1：call, vill almost always have air like bdfd, or random whatever combo, cuz dont expecting he donk 33/77 at flop, they almost always slow play with there 2rd nuts by check raise or by just calling, give the max chance let him to hang himself, keep the aggression,
Decision #2：shoving cuz vill dont have much left, there is a chance vill just give up on river, and if vill indeed holding flush draw, dont c how he can fold it once he bet the turn with this size and effective stack behind, duty for his fd holding
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不知道大家怎么在这个spot做决定呢? 俺是已经有自己的答案, 只是和朋友探讨这两手牌的时候, 在EV这个维度上, 分别持有不同的意见

都是英文  原谅我看不懂英文啊  lz

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 17:36
确切的说，如果是reg的话这里没有JJ QQ AQ AJ这几手牌的

对，这几手牌理论都是不存在的，33 KT倒是有可能，但德扑圈这样选手多，特别是低级别

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 17:36
确切的说，如果是reg的话这里没有JJ QQ AQ AJ这几手牌的

其实, 都是reg,
reg并不代表水平好, 或许只是稳定送钱, 且送的很稳定无波动的reg,

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 17:35
我很好奇前面有limper，JJ mp 居然不raise，如果我知道面对的是这样的对手turn肯定再raise回去 ...

因为我贴里也交代了, 有一个vpip 85%, open/3bet频率相当高的鱼在小盲, 遇到一堆limper, 起到6bb+基本是duty job..
JJ在MP应该也是意识到这个dynamic, 才选择deep limp behind...
当然我也是很吃惊, 因为他flop上都可能在想trap这个sb.. 丧心病狂了,

ankeeeee 发表于 2016-6-8 17:30
river Td, action killer, check/check
showdown
对手JJ, mid set slow playing on flop

确切的说，如果是reg的话这里没有JJ QQ AQ AJ这几手牌的

ankeeeee 发表于 2016-6-8 17:30
river Td, action killer, check/check
showdown
对手JJ, mid set slow playing on flop

我很好奇前面有limper，JJ mp 居然不raise，如果我知道面对的是这样的对手turn肯定再raise回去

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 16:48
我们在flop的bet表示我们的牌力比Q大， turn上继续bet表示我们不怕A，对手turn上还能re出来基本就是TK，3 ...

river Td, action killer, check/check
showdown
对手JJ, mid set slow playing on flop
和我的plan一样, 在trap那个spewy sb player, 只是trap到了AA..

amandag 发表于 2016-6-8 16:48
我们在flop的bet表示我们的牌力比Q大， turn上继续bet表示我们不怕A，对手turn上还能re出来基本就是TK，3 ...

cbet flop and turn with 1/2 size, 只是很standard的no-brainer bet, 给对手闭眼click click的single weakish Q的印象, 而不是为了end the hand right there by betting 2/3 or even pot size.
turn A
并不是有意的为了表达hero 不怕A的意思, 始终保持1/2 size (同时有意的click很快, 虽然不确定对手是否会捕捉我有意制作出来的timing tell+size tell)
目的是希望给对手3bet in position, 去利用自己的draw/top pair/whatever holding with have the right equity to 3bet with, 去rep A来攻击我的bet.

假设我                   bet 1/3, 会显得很fishy,
       我bet 2/3, 又可能会block掉对手一堆可以semi bluff attack或self-value我的combo的%

选择call pot size rarise的原因只有一个,
对手是一个处于passive side的鱼宝宝, 假设, 对手是pair+flush draw/2 pair+ (anything but not KT)
是否真的会rarise到pot这个size呢?

Juuuuust 发表于 2016-6-8 13:57
针对第二首牌，个人绝大多数时候肯定会raise回去。
我所观察到，绝大部分donk玩家的bet-call概率大于他在河 ...

其实, 对于open/3bet的pre flop action, 到了river, 对手差不多刚刚好有一个pot size bet, 我更愿意相信他会bluff的, check fold, 从面子上, 鱼儿也很难接受, 往往视死如归的闭眼推, 做最后的垂死挣扎, 我倒不是很相信他能够迷途知返,
你说的情况, 应该在多人池中体现的较多, HU pot上我持有保留意见, 哈哈~

当然,
我现在想想rarise回去应该是好过call, 假设对手是draw+any pair, 不会bet/fold的, 到turn上的纯air这里不会连续开两枪.

对手AcTc,
flop bdfd/ turn fd+gutter for the K.