智游城

 找回密码
 注册

QQ登录

只需一步,快速开始

扫一扫,访问微社区

查看: 21296|回复: 24
打印 上一主题 下一主题

分析艾迪米勒最新的一篇文章

[复制链接]
跳转到指定楼层
1#
伟大的墙 发表于 2010-2-13 06:08:58 | 只看该作者 回帖奖励 |正序浏览 |阅读模式
艾迪米勒最近写了好多关于锦标赛的论文。我大概看了今天一篇,复述一下梗概。

是他的一个读者来信,此君玩的是2009年WSOP main event. 这把牌发生在第三天,level 11,盲注800-1600,200ante。全桌都很紧,此君 double了一下后,现在有50000筹码。而此时的总平均大约是90000.3个小时内此君拿到的最好的牌是A5,所以在这个 level上他一把都没玩。

机会终于来了,在按钮拿了红桃AJ,大家都扔到此君,他干到4000,小盲扔,大忙是个比较凶的欧洲人回手干到12000,他共有80000多筹码,多余此君。我给出他牌的范围大概包括同花顺AK到67,对子AA到55,也许有KQ或者KJ类。

AJ被raise,一般很难缠。对于一个很紧的选手来说,如果他raise了你的AJ,你应该扔掉。但这个欧洲家伙不是很紧的,所以,未必被统治。根据poker stove给的数据,同花AJ有49%的实力去对抗一个reraise,因此,此君加上位置因素,所以他具有的成败比是18800 to 8000

富老婆彩虹AQ9,欧洲人出手10000,锅里26800,他还余下38000,该此君做决定的时候。
艾迪米勒认为这根本不是什么困难的决定,后文会告诉,他认为此君应该扔掉。
然后有一堆此君的心理活动,掠过。他靠了。

转机来了梅花10,上面两个梅花。欧洲观,这时候此君有两头兆加一对,而且对手又示弱了,于是此君all了,欧洲想了很久,还是靠了,人家是梅花AK,各种情况都比此君更好。最后当然输了,然后让艾迪米勒帮他分析这手牌。

分析如下,翻牌后,他的SPR是1.5,一般应该commit了。然后一堆数学,略过。
然后米勒建议他raise这个家伙在翻牌上,主要是为了打走那些类似QJ和89之类的东西。
最后米勒的结论是他的最大错误是靠了翻牌前的raise,一旦靠了后,翻牌一出来,就跑不掉了。

我看完这篇文章后,再想想城里各种各样的bad beat的故事。比如,我打了一下午,就打了一把对A,翻牌前推了,一个傻逼拿对10靠我,河上来个10,我输了。然后请教这个请教那个,我该怎么打能赢。其实,根本的错误不是你这个对A怎么打,而是在于你打得太紧,一天的全部堵住放在一把牌上,错过了太多的赢的机会,尤其是在锦标赛里这是不行的。

所以,要我追究此君的错误的话,我认为,他翻牌前靠也没错。一个很凶的欧洲人,回击来自按钮的raise,完全不代表他有牌。every hand相信许多人都看过,相信此君和这个欧洲人都应该看过。Gus Hansen不只一次提到,当你在盲注上,遇到了来自按钮的raise,要勇敢的回击。如果两个人都知道,欧洲人首先认为作者是想偷盲注,恰好此君认为欧洲人学了hansen的战术而回击保护盲注。而此君恰好又有很强的牌,在按钮,这种情况下红桃AJ那是很厉害的。所以,靠的合情合理,从头到尾,我没发现这把牌有任何大错。非要吹毛求疵死乞白赖找错,仁者见仁智者见智,其实全是废话。从这把牌里,你很难得到真正有意义的见解。探讨这把牌怎么打,接近毫无意义。

我想问的是,在这样紧的桌子上,3个小时此君一把都没玩,就是他最大的错。
他是在等好牌去清别人,这是打锦标赛最错误的动机。3小时你可以拿不到好牌,但不能说一次都没有赢的机会吧,如果这样的话,真建议此君去看看 every hand revealed了。推而广之,打现金都是一样的,许多等了3小时来对K输了,然后问如何把这对K打赢了,答案是,你输定了。你把所有的希望都放在这一把上,当然没谱了。

管理学里有个著名的故事
说一个企业好比一群猴子,一群小猴子埋头摘桃子,大猴子看着这些小猴子好好干活。而有一直老猴子,什么都不干,他爬到树梢,四处瞭望,看哪里有一片新的桃林。是啊,死乞白赖的在这片林子里摘桃子,任凭小猴子摘得再快,兢兢业业任劳任怨,大猴子管理得再好,你摘得桃子都是有限的,因为这桃林里一共就那么多桃子,摘完了就完了。而老猴子如果发现了一个新桃林,局面立刻就非常不同。

所以我的结论就是,此君输,在于他有3个小时什么都没玩,因为他没有进攻敌人,敌人的火力就比他强了。假如,他不停的进攻,也许,这个欧洲人的筹码已经比他少了,悲剧发生的时候,他也不至于全军覆没。
分享到:  QQ好友和群QQ好友和群 QQ空间QQ空间 腾讯微博腾讯微博 腾讯朋友腾讯朋友 微信微信
收藏收藏
25#
pokerbean 发表于 2010-9-6 21:14:47 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 pokerbean 于 2010-9-6 21:17 编辑
回复  pokerbean

哈哈,原来是各种谬论~~~
墙翻译得gus的那本书,语言生动有趣,可是自己写文章的时候怎 ...
清都山水郎 发表于 2010-9-6 19:51


    呵呵,墙皮实着呢,才不怕我说他谬论。我看他就是喜欢把高论说得跟谬论似的。

或者说是:谬论与高论齐飞,胡扯共真知一色。
24#
清都山水郎 发表于 2010-9-6 19:51:43 | 只看该作者
回复 23# pokerbean

哈哈,原来是各种谬论~~~
墙翻译得gus的那本书,语言生动有趣,可是自己写文章的时候怎么总是让人有误解呢
23#
pokerbean 发表于 2010-9-6 19:04:38 | 只看该作者
豆子妹妹如果找不到那篇的电子版你就一字一句敲进去吧
伟大的墙 发表于 2010-9-5 02:11


敲,敲你个头啊~~~~~

现在上线了,你有什么谬论赶快发吧。
========================

Math Brats’ PsychologyFearless and hyperaggressive
by Alan Schoonmaker |  Published: Sep 03, 2010

   

TIME magazine rarely discusses poker, but the June 28, 2010, issue contained “Attack of the Math Brats.” It praised Phil Hellmuth’s past accomplishments, but said, “Last year it all began to fall apart. Hellmuth, 45, lost money and failed to make the final table of even one tournament for the first time in more than a decade …

“He blames the new breed of math nerd. … ‘The reason I won 11 bracelets is my ability to read opponents. … These new guys are focused on the math. And they are changing everything.’”

The article continued: “In the past few years, hold’em has evolved … into a hyperaggressive contest for betting bullies who risk all their chips at bizarre moments.”

When David Sklansky and I discussed this article, he said that it missed an important psychological point. Mathematical players tend to be nerds, but the math brats don’t play that way. Most nerds are conservative. They wait for good cards before putting in their money.

Aggressive players are usually different kinds of people. They love action or rely on great people-reading skills. The toughest aggressive players have both qualities. They can sense weakness, have confidence in their reads, and get a kick out of bluffing. Stu Ungar, three-time winner of the World Series of Poker main event, was the best example.

Math still attracts the same kinds of nerds. You remember the high-school kids who loved math. They were usually studious, introverted, insecure, and socially inept. Most were boys, but a few were girls.

Today’s math brats are more aggressive than Stu Ungar! They drive tournament players nuts by raising, three-betting, and shoving in their stacks with hands that most people never used to consider playing. Some of them do it not because they love to gamble, not because they have great people-reading skills, but because the math proves that a hyperaggressive style pays off in tournaments, especially no-limit hold’em tournaments.

Of course, if they didn’t have some gamble in them, they wouldn’t play poker, but their mastery of the math has made them choose a hyperaggressive style. If you play 50 tournaments a year, you’ll win more money with one first-place finish than with 15 or 20 small cashes.

The math brats’ style creates an illusion about their personality. Most opponents don’t see them as nerds. Because their aggressive style doesn’t fit the stereotype, many opponents see them as crazy risk-takers. And because they don’t understand how the brats think, they don’t adjust well.

This hyperaggressive style was never popular before, but its foundations were laid many years ago in David Sklansky’s The Theory of Poker. Although he didn’t invent the tactic, he coined the term “semi-bluff,” and he analyzed it mathematically. “A semi-bluff is a bet [or raise or check-raise] with a hand which, if called, does not figure to be the best hand at the moment, but has a reasonable chance of outdrawing those hands that initially called it.” (Page 91)

When he wrote that book, hardly anyone played no-limit hold’em. In limit games, bets are called much more often than they are in no-limit games. In no-limit hold’em tournaments, even fewer bets are called, and not many hands go to showdown. As the probability that everyone will fold goes up, the fold equity of raising increases.

In addition, even when you are called, you will win more often than most people believe. Unless you’re facing an overpair, your opponent is not that big a favorite. For example, A-K suited is the best no-pair hand, while 7-2 offsuit is the worst, but A-K suited is only a 69-31 favorite.

Most people would regard shoving all in with 7-2 offsuit a pure bluff, because you don’t seem to have a reasonable chance of drawing out. But if you get called by A-K suited, you have about the same odds of winning as if you semibluffed on the flop with an open-end straight draw against a big pocket pair.

And your chances of being called by some overpairs are small. David Sklansky called it “The Gap Concept” in Tournament Poker for Advanced Players: “In a tournament, it is often right to open-raise with hands which are far inferior to those with which you would need to call someone else who has open-raised.” (Page 28)

For example, many people would not risk their tournament lives with a pair of eights. They would be a large favorite only if the raiser had two smaller cards, which rarely happens. If the opponent has two overcards, it’s a coin flip. If the opponent has an overpair, they’re a huge dog. So, they fold.

If you add the fold equity and your equity when called, shoving all in is often the mathematically correct play. In fact, if your opponents will fold often enough, you should shove with any two cards. Of course, the exact definition of “often enough” depends on your opponents, the blinds, the size of the pot, and your stack size.

Because better qualified people have analyzed the mathematics of making and calling all-in bets, I won’t discuss that subject. I’ll just say that the math clearly favors a hyperaggressive strategy, and some of the math brats who play that way are not doing it because they have Stu Ungar’s love for action or his gifts of spotting and exploiting weakness.

They don’t need to be able to read tells, and so on (although some have those skills). All they need is mastery of tournament math, which gives them an immense edge over opponents who either can’t do the math or are afraid to risk their stack. So, we have some nerds playing like confident, wild gamblers, winning big, and driving opponents crazy.

What are the implications for you? In Your Worst Poker Enemy, I wrote that poker has a Darwinian evolution. Because our game changes, “If you play the same way tomorrow that you do today, your results will slowly deteriorate.” (Page 216) You may resent the math brats’ youth, success, and hyperaggression, but they are facts, and you had better accept that reality.

One option is to try to adjust to them. It won’t be easy, and it may be impossible. Adjusting may take you so far out of your comfort zone that you become ineffective.

Another option is to avoid them. For example, some of my friends used to play several WSOP events, but now play only the seniors tournament. Some people have completely stopped playing tournaments. They stick to cash games, preferably limit games.

You may hate admitting that you can’t cope with those fearless, hyperaggressive kids, but it’s better to face the truth. If you don’t, you can become severely frustrated, and lose heavily.

Dr. Schoonmaker (alan_schoonmaker@yahoo.com) is David Sklansky’s co-author of DUCY? He is the sole author of The Psychology of Poker, Your Worst Poker Enemy, Your Best Poker Friend, and Poker Winners Are Different.
22#
不会打比赛 发表于 2010-9-5 13:16:59 | 只看该作者
比赛的事情咱不懂.我经常打的是深筹码现金桌.在我的理念中,AA,KK绝不是赢大锅的牌.
他们很难提高,如果打到RIVER还只有一对,你能指望赢个大锅吗?
弱弱的问下墙,比赛大部分时候都是小筹码,一旦你加注或者跟注进入彩池,所形成的SPR值会
比较小,那是适合大对或者大牌的,如果你拿着小对,同花连张什么的进入彩池,这些需要时间才能
提高的牌在比赛里有那么多的时间和空间让他们折腾吗?如果没有,那么更多的进入彩池该如何实现呢?
21#
mel_6e 发表于 2010-9-5 11:00:59 | 只看该作者
"其实,根本的错误不是你这个对A怎么打,而是在于你打得太紧,一天的全部堵住放在一把牌上,错过了太多的赢的机会,尤其是在锦标赛里这是不行的。"很有感触,我以前就是打的太紧了,总想等到起码ak,aq这样以上的牌把那些爱allin的松手干死,殊不知,经常kk被很多人随便一个同花清场。
打到现在的经验,mtt应该就是扩大起手牌的范围,然后控制好单局的风险,靠大牌,胜率太低了
20#
稳如泰山 发表于 2010-9-5 10:59:23 | 只看该作者
看了墙的这篇文章,我想起了我的一把牌:锦标赛第一副牌,前面有一家all in,到我面前,我拿着2,8s,一不小心按了call。双方亮牌,他AA,牌面来了2条2,于是成3条洗了他。
所以墙说:“我想问的是,在这样紧的桌子上,3个小时此君一把都没玩,就是他最大的错。
他是在等好牌去清别人,这是打锦标赛最错误的动机。3小时你可以拿不到好牌,但不能说一次都没有赢的机会吧。”我严重赞成。
在没亮牌时,任何牌都有赢得可能,只是概率不一样而已。当然说这些不是让你每把都去玩。
19#
hahuhu 发表于 2010-9-5 03:08:39 | 只看该作者
大家说的都对——站在自己的角度都对。下面缩小一下讨论的范围,尝试找到论点。
第一,ED米勒的文章被墙打了折扣,险些让我们误解了专家的意思。专家是讨论一手具体的牌,以及介绍了如何去具体的分析一手牌。专家没有发表如何打比赛的观点。
第二,gus汉森的书是一种特别针对打比赛的打牌理念。最大化了弃牌胜率,但是gus汉森在现场的很多表现,并不是“使劲的偷”。从high stackes poker可以看出来。甚至打的很紧。
第三,打比赛,一个人三天大概也超不过2000手牌,没拿到AA/KK很有可能。是不是用gus汉森的技巧,就一定能偷到冠军,也不是绝对的。大部分的情况下是不可能的。
我们的辩题到底是什么呢?或者说我们聊的到底是什么呢。我感觉,墙要说的是,打扑克要运用弃牌赢率。客客要说的是针对对手起手牌范围的赢率优势。yacaimei要说的是专家说的没错,另外gus汉森的技巧不能简单照搬到现金游戏中去(我个人也确实认为汉森打牌在他们那个级别不是最好的)。
总结完毕,建议根据以上意见各开一个专贴。将来汇总成册,出书发表。
18#
 楼主| 伟大的墙 发表于 2010-9-5 02:11:09 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 伟大的墙 于 2010-9-5 02:14 编辑

把这个往前刷新一下过几天我要用到

三篇在一起基本是我最近一年的思考成果

这篇至少是半年前了
当时我觉得写得很好让风暴帮我翻译然后投到card plyer去。风暴没答应。


最近allan schoonmaker那篇,这两篇有很多关联。其实在写桃林那篇的时候我已经大量用pre flop semibluff了

还有q9和对dui手变化起手牌就是我最近一年的理念

过后我仔细总结一下

这帖子最失败的地方是组织大家来学习和讨论被我批的文章

豆子妹妹如果找不到那篇的电子版你就一字一句敲进去吧
17#
wangxiaoqing 发表于 2010-2-16 21:35:43 | 只看该作者

分析艾迪米勒最新的一篇文章

是啊,松凶的打法在现在看来可能才是王者之道,前提是你要有很好的读牌技能,我就是这方面有欠缺,所以打的要紧很多
您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 注册

本版积分规则

手机版|Archiver|智游城论坛

GMT+8, 2024-11-24 06:46 , Processed in 0.099575 second(s), 9 queries , Redis On.

Powered by Discuz! X3.2

© 2001-2012 Comsenz Inc.

返回顶部