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标题: 一手有趣的牌-river 4x pot shove [打印本页]

作者: pongba 时间: 2014-11-6 07:49
标题: 一手有趣的牌-river 4x pot shove
interesting spot with a decent player.

5 players.

Hero in BB, Villian limped UTG, UTG+1 called, I check in BB with TT (reason being that Villian plays real snug and also capable of putting me to very tough spot post flop, so here I check TT in order to both neutralize his positional advantage (we're >200BB deep) and to trap him).

Flop: Qc5d7d

I check, Villian bet, call, call.

Turn: Th

I lead, Villian calls, 1 fold.

River: 6c

I lead pot size, Villian shove >200BB into a pot of 50BB.

Problem for me here is that

1) I'm basically at the very top of my range, considering that I never call OOP in a 3way pot with a gutshot like 89 or 34, and that I would almost always re-raise with 8d9d or 4d3d based on the fact that it was a limping pot. From GTO point of view, folding this hand would be very exploitable.
2) Villian would never put me on TT, from his POV, he likely put me on a Q or 2p. He's likely feeling that those hands *can't* call a shove this big.
3) I've seen villian do this with missed draws, and here we have a missed flush draw.
4) villian is good enough to also do this do nuts, but on the other hand, I don't have hand history where he overbet shove with nuts.
5) the shove is fairly quick, not after a deep tank. Quick river overbet can indicate a bluff, since value hands normally would think about the best value bet size.
etc.etc.

作者: dfu2012 时间: 2014-11-6 10:14
深筹码最怕的是后位的不要脸牌。

这牌让我对老陈的翻前把锅搞大点打掉不要脸有一些体会。我还是支持翻前没位置锅小好处大的总原则，但针对性反击也是合理的。

这牌从描述上看对手应该是咋呼失败，尤其是河牌过于迅速的ALLIN，我拿NUT一般会分析下对手的特点，看最大程度能拿多少VALUE。不过楼主下注给出的牌力信号非常的强，深筹码下，F先跟，T再DB，R再1 POT（说明牌很强，强到不怕对手的深筹码），短筹码还可以说有一点咋呼的怀疑，深筹码这无疑就是非常的强牌信号，如果他拿NUTS推也不奇怪。

TURN上UTG拿着78S的时候，做半咋呼有很大的好处，筹码深度和弃牌率都支持他这么做。尤其该对手是松凶牌手的时候，按他的特点在TURN该这么打反而不打就说明他可能拿的不是这牌。当然面对好点的平衡牌手，TURN上的RASIE未必行的通，因为对手比较平衡的话（不会一打就跑掉总会用一部分牌抓咋呼），打弃牌率未必是好的选择。我拿78S TURN上一般看对方特点，并不总是RASIE，看对手做决定。

这个例子我感兴趣最大的点还是在老陈提到的，中等强度的对子没位置怎么打的问题。碰到这种三头尴尬的局面（FLOP被Q盖住，对手RANGE不明，筹码深自己位置差）怎么简化处理，是翻前搞到13还是打翻后的技术。无论怎样我还是觉得深筹码没位置锅小点好，大不了翻后就丢掉吧。可能保守了，针对特定的对手是反击好还是保守好？反正就是思考的点很多，所以写这么多。

作者: fafafafefe 时间: 2014-11-6 12:16
given your description this is a mandatory call. as you said if you often raise 34dd/89dd on the flop. TT is the very top of your range. if you don't call. he has 95% fold equity on you, which means he can prolly do this with any two cards and still be profitable. (less profitable of course..)

vs a transparent fish you call find a fold here. but against this particular one i'd call and not regret if he shows the nuts.

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